Curse

GW Monkey · Jun 30, 2005, 09:05 PM // 21:05

The focus for GW is and should rightfully be PvP/GvG. I've always considered PvE as "practice" to entice those afraid or just against the concept of PvP, having been abused in games where it wasn't your decision. So you give them easy mobs and silly, random PvP to take the fear out, progress to much harder and tactically signifigant PvE missions requiring coordination and teamwork, with team based PvP arenas... and finally very difficult PvE like UW/FoW that are intolerant of even simple mistakes and Tournament PvP. So that finally, yes! They are prepared for the game's name: GUILD WARS.

That said, the "tutorial" parts of GW are grossly lacking. Since BWE times they have added much content for this, and I've re-started fresh PvE characters multiple times to see the changes... but sadly it's a droplet in a bucket. Most of it is centered around controlling your character and understanding the interface. So many people arrive at later portions of the PvE game, having never learned some basic things. Sit in Hell's Precipice and listen to the types of really basic questions that get asked. It's frustrating. This is the thing I find most upsetting, and I'm sure it contributes to the "idiot factor" of PUGs.

Like reallocating attributes dynamically. Why for Grenth's sake has this not been forced on them? This was one of the core concepts of GW, yet so many people decide "I'm a sword-wielding warrior" and they swing that same Fiery Dragon from the time they overpaid for it till the time they get bored of dying and quit GW. Show them. FORCE THEM. Make it a mission. Off the top of my head, maybe something like: Have the Charr catch and imprison them in the Northlands, and take away all their items. Whatever weapon / realm of casting they have, leave a different one outside their cell with the basic attacks / spells that match. Have a box pop up to explain that to use this effectively, they need to change their attribute focus. After they fight their way out, at the end of the mission, they get their stuff back and can reallocate.

There's many more examples, but the basic concept is this: Prepare them. We're all really the same six characters with the same abilities... the only thing that separates us is planning and tactics. (well, and the ability to learn.)

DarrenJasper · Jun 30, 2005, 09:07 PM // 21:07

Great post. Completely agree.

Night · Jun 30, 2005, 09:14 PM // 21:14

Hmm now that would be interesting, forcing someone to learn how to play the game. I am all for it. lol I can hear the lighters and kerosene coming out right about ....

Andy_M · Jun 30, 2005, 09:57 PM // 21:57

But come on, they gave us a guide to Piken Square - what more do you want ?

Dreamsmith · Jun 30, 2005, 10:10 PM // 22:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by GW Monkey

Like reallocating attributes dynamically. Why for Grenth's sake has this not been forced on them?

Because there's generally no need for it, and thus it isn't in fact an important game skill?

I think the game does a pretty good job covering the essentials, including the PvP aspect (have you noticed that at least two of the three Ascension missions are mock-PvP missions?)

Epinephrine · Jun 30, 2005, 10:25 PM // 22:25

We also need a mission teaching targetting.

Numa Pompilius · Jun 30, 2005, 10:32 PM // 22:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by GW Monkey

The focus for GW is and should rightfully be PvP/GvG. I've always considered PvE as "practice" to entice those afraid or just against the concept of PvP

Funnily enough, I think the focus for GW is and should rightfully be PvE. I've always considered PvP repetitive and dull and mainly to keep the hockey card gaming crowd happy.

I wonder who of us is wrong.

GW Monkey · Jun 30, 2005, 10:46 PM // 22:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

I wonder who of us is wrong.

You are. And it's "which of us" in that context. The crowd they're keeping happy is the one that want this to be Diablo 3 in the worst way. Or even better, the delusional types that want to treat it as an MMORPG with no monthly fee (that's the only reason they're here). But as a company they need the dollars. Go do some research on this game's developmental history. You don't have to go that far back, just to E3 for Everyone will be fine. Now stop trolling. Or do you have something relevant to say about my suggestion?

Talesin Darkbriar · Jun 30, 2005, 10:55 PM // 22:55

Know what GW Monkey?
Yours is a great post!

The PvE does teach much, but there are indeed several basic concepts that it does not, (or perhaps the average player simply doesn't comprehend?) among those would be:

Pulling techniques: how, when and where it should be done.

Aggro management: Why does the creature always eat you first? Try waiting a moment for the fighter to engage it before you begin nuking like a madman!

Power management: Why do so many casters go dry within the first 15 seconds of a pitched battle? Is it necessary to cast all your spells ASAP? Absolutely not - timing isn't everything, its the only thing.

Team design: So many builds and all anyone seems to care about is self-sufficiency or using a monk as a velcroed NPC to compensate for no skill.
A regular team can be designed to be incredibly lethal with all contributing.

No tutorials for these concepts exist in PvE, and the partial result of this is a percentage of players who simply don't know any better.

Talesin

Numa Pompilius · Jul 01, 2005, 06:53 AM // 06:53

Monkey: The point of GW isn't solely PvP. The idea behind GW isn't solely PvP. The devs didn't intend it to be solely PvP. They didn't build a world that takes several hundred hours to fully explore solely as a tutorial for PvP. They want there to be BOTH PvE and PvP.
What you, personally, want or believe is simply irrelevant, regardless of how much you assert otherwise.
Clear?

However, Talesin is absolutely right - we need more basic PvE technique trainers for beginning players. Too many players don't know how to PvE effectively, and teaching concepts such as, say, pulling and tanking would go a long way.
PvP training, on the other hand, isn't a task of the PvE campaign, it's a task for the guilds.

theclam · Jul 01, 2005, 07:17 AM // 07:17

I agree. The first real PvE tests start in the desert. Players have several dozen hours of gameplay, in which they can learn bad habits, before they're required to have good habits. If they learned good habits earlier, they'd have more fun, and I wouldn't have to spend ages finding a good party for the Ascension missions. Talesin lists some good examples and in addition to those, there should be missions where you're supposed to counter specific threats. For example, if there was a mission where you have to destroy a Stone Summit field hospital, then maybe players would learn how to deal with Monk mobs.

JoDiamonds · Jul 01, 2005, 02:30 PM // 14:30

Monkey, don't be a jerk and yell at people for not loving your suggestion or agreeing with what are apparently opinions. Maybe you are secretly the CEO of Arena, but that would just mean we aren't all blessed as blessed as you. No reason to be mean about it.

Anyway, I strongly favour more tutorial aspects, including stuff like Talesian's suggestions (some of which are strictly for PvE). Even if it's as simple as pre-Academy Devona saying stuff like, "Let me attack first. Hopefully the Grawl will ignore you then!". Some of it will need to be more in-depth, and let me say that I don't envy anyone at ArenaNet who actually has to do this stuff. Tutorials are hard work.

But the benefit is a much more informed player base. It's also likely to get along better, because other players will just know what you are talking about.

I'm half amazed when maximum level players don't know what target-calling is, but half sorry that the game hasn't taught them. Even if you are just playing with Henchmen, target calling isn't wrong, and a good way to make the henchmen attack when you want them to (especially when you are a caster...)

ducktape · Jul 07, 2005, 07:05 AM // 07:05

I love this idea. The more skilled people become, the more fun everyone will have when playing the game. Teaching intermediate skills and strategy like target calling, aggro management, basic group strategies, etc is definitely something that should be added relatively early in the game. I agree with GW Monkey that if all of the players knew more of the intermediate skills, it would make for better PUG's, GvG and PvP battles. It should encourage more player interaction and cooperation if people can do the training at their own pace and then come into grouping situations with necessary tactics and strategy to make grouping a more enjoyable experience. Even if someone goes through the intermediate gameplay tutorials and decides they want to play the whole game with just henchmen, the more training you have means you die less and enjoy the game more.

At first I was thinking this training should go in pre-searing quests or the ascalon academy, but then what to do for the players who have already progressed beyond that point and can't go back? It would be nice if everyone could participate in the training with their current character build instead of having to create a new character. After all, there is no such thing as too much practice or too much training. Maybe they could make a post-searing Ascalon Academy and have Warmaster Tydus give newbies a quest to go there when they first arrive in post-searing, and just let everyone else decide whether they want to warp back to Ascalon and go train at the Academy.

It would be lots of work for the ANet guys, but it would sure be a boost to the GW community in the short and long term.

Sereng Amaranth · Jul 07, 2005, 08:07 AM // 08:07

Tutorial: Trading

Step 1:
Hit the tilde key. (to the left of 1)

Step 2:
Make sure the checkbox next to 'Trade' is checked.

Step 3:
Click the 'Trade' tab.

Step 4:
Spam all you want.

Numa Pompilius · Jul 07, 2005, 08:29 AM // 08:29

Actually, yeah, even basic skills like trading and which channel to use when.

I know from my friends (who bought their games after me) that there's an actual instruction leaflet in the box now, but when I bought the game there was zero information about the gameplay. There was a novel about "lore" and a book about how to create a character and PvP. That was it.

For instance I had to ask other players how to trade, and I didn't know the difference between quests and missions (or even how to enter missions).

Arctic Strike · Jul 09, 2005, 06:54 AM // 06:54

An arena could be set in pre-searing that is exculsively used for tutorials or make players learn something and set up something similar in the so called "Academy". Some people just don't have the right person with them to show them how to handle themselves in combat. Many a gamer have left GW because they haven't learned how to co-op. I'm sure there are several ways to handle this and any one of those solutions would benfit the guild wars community as a whole.

Rhunex · Jul 09, 2005, 07:28 AM // 07:28

why not just let people play the way they would like to? if targetting, or attribute refunding isn't in their objectives when they get on for 15-30 minutes every week, why force them to learn it? anyways, in most games that attempt things like this, you end up with something where the people who play most get angry because they have to waste their time on something they already know how to do, and the people who play the most will just push the right button at the right time, and get back into their same groove...essentially learning nothing. It's a great idea, but it's been implemented in games past and doesn't work. If you want a quality game where you don't enter the Hell's Precipice mission and the first thing said is "What's a rune good for?" then get a guild, get a group of 8 guildies, and play the mission. Going pubbing and complaining about stupidity is irrelevant, as it happens in everygame ever created for online play...

GW Monkey · Jul 09, 2005, 09:40 AM // 09:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoDiamonds

Monkey, don't be a jerk and yell at people

LOL Sorry. I try not to argue. I don't care if they agree with the suggestion, but be prepared to justify your reasoning. In this case it's that whole "hockey card" crap, he Awakened the Blood. PvP is so much more effort than PvE, though it's not worth explaining / convincing someone who can't grasp it. :/ They'd never be competitive enough to be a team asset or a challenging opponent, anyway. This is why I want them "trained up" by the game itself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhunex

why not just let people play the way they would like to? if targetting, or attribute refunding isn't in their objectives when they get on for 15-30 minutes every week, why force them to learn it?

If that's all the time you can dedicate to GW, you'll be a player that is useless to everyone, PvE and PvP alike. 30 minutes? A WEEK?! No, you're right, I could care less how he plays GW or what he learns. He can stay targeting-dumb, it's fine by me. =)

re: why force them? Why? Why? but... but... but... I'm getting flustered. I don't know how to re-word the suggestion so it makes sense to you. How could this possibly be bad, to learn to use your tools correctly? Yes, you CAN use a Cresent wrench as a hammer, I suppose, but that's not it's intended use. It's not effective as a wrench this way and it's definitely not as effective as a real hammer. But since you're a "self-taught" mechanic you might not know any better unless someone took it away from you and showed you how to use it. Oh and butter knives are not screwdrivers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talesin Darkbriar

No tutorials for these concepts exist in PvE

Darkbriar, great suggestions! Team building should be pretty easy. Remember those blue "tips" boxes in presear that popped up? If we could get them to setup trigger events... like for example, if you add 3 Ws to your 4-man team in Ascalon, it pops up and says something about balanced teams and effectiveness?

Aggro management, that needs a classroom map with The Seer at the front at the blackboard drawing diagrams and explaining the aggro circle and what chained aggro means, etc. I threatened to write a book re: GW Aggro Circles For Dummies (With Pictures!) and I just may have to... such a basic PvE concept that's been around since RPG computer games were invented still being misunderstood. I know it's not because people are stupid, but because no one ever actually explained it to them... some people cannot pick stuff up on the fly very well, and I guess this makes it full-circle. We need more tutorial missions.

Storm Shadow · Jul 09, 2005, 10:09 AM // 10:09

the tutorial mission would be great. i mean one of my best officers in my guild didnt evean know what the damn aggro circle was till dunes of dispar i was very shocked(later at the hall me and my other top officer laughed at him for it) and it was a in the middle of the mission to, not the best place to just realize what that is.

PieXags · Jul 09, 2005, 11:16 AM // 11:16

I'm against it. Lets say the items they drop out my cell doesn't require the attributes I'm using for my build? Why the HELL should I have to rearrange them just for this one tutorial?

I think the learning curve in the game is fine as is, if you add too many "teaching" quests and missions where they tell you to "pull the mobs in groups of 3, 4 times" or some shit like that. Hell this isn't a platformer where everything is spelled out for you, some of it you have to use common sense to understand.